disclaimer: the thoughts presented here are my own.
fact: $1.8billion in US aid to Egypt every year.
fact: Mubarak is a dictator who has helped maintain stability
fact: the only real option for Democracy in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood
fact: the Brotherhood aren't fans of Israel
fact: the Brotherhood are a Sunni group
fact: Sunni like to oppress women
fact: the Brotherhood would turn Egypt into an Islamist State and could enact Sharia Law
fact: Islamist State in Africa, that doesn't like Israel with access to billions of dollars in US made military equipment as well as US trained military personnel is not good for stability
fact: schools in the US should forget teaching French and start teaching Arabic
fact: the US is getting pressured by Saudi Arabia, Israel and Jordan
fact: when Obama announced that Mubarak should "step down" it upset Saudi Arabia. They now feel that if the US can that quickly turn its back on one ally, that the US has the ability to do the same to all of its allies.
fact: it's a shitty mess and if the US and other politicians were as smart as half of Facebook there would have been Democracy in Egypt 2 weeks ago
fact: most people like to make uninformed, emotional professions of support on topics they are ignorant to.
fact: Obama and his team have no idea what to do. It is also unlikely that any other president would know what to do. In fact we should all choose our next US president very very wisely.
fact: while the US tries to figure out what the hell to do, China is quietly going about business as usual in Africa, South America, Middle East, and Australia, mining, drilling, and securing the resources it needs to overtake the US as the worlds most powerful economy
please make corrections or offer more facts for me.
4 comments:
Many good points, some I would explore my contrasting view but since I cannot see what you wrote while I respond...you win!!!
Ok, you mentioned woman's right and the Muslim Brotherhood. No evidence Mubarek has done anything on this issue. In fact, he's reactionary. Seroiusly, ask women how awesome it is to live with these Arab dictators.
Second, they are all Muslims so I see your choice of radical right Muslims (brotherhood) vs. present oppressor as oversimplified. Remember, this was started by secular minded people who just want what we have and profess to promote. Educated, young, connected but oppressed, unemployed and dispossessed. We would be on the streets too my friend.
I agree there is a huge risk radical people hostile to Israel and the US might have a larger voice. Perhaps I see this as more related to our support of shitty autocrats than you might. In other words people REALLY hated Batista, The Shah and Marcos which drove popular revolutions exploited by nationalistic theocracies which formed hostile governments.
In simple form, when we prop up a total dick people are highly motivated for change. Our "clients" use the money to stomp out cavemen Taliban types but they also pocket the change, imprison the innocent and ignore the dreams of innocent hard working citizens.
Dick Cheney is OK with that, I see it as unsustainable in the long term. The policy broadly overestimates our ability to control geopolitics.
Lastly, it might not be a bad thing if Israel is forced to negotiate peace commensurate with the risks of oppressing Palestinians with the possibility the Arab world may at some point call a spade a spade. They talk a very tough game with US military aid, heavy lobbying and an Egypt willing to ignore bad behavior placated by US aid.
I absolutely agree Andrew. We've supported Mubarak, we've essentially helped to create the nightmare of Egypt and nobody knows what to do. There is no sustainability and the US needs to soon realize that.
There is no doubt that, if I were only 1 of 35million people expected to live on less than $2 a day, I would be pissed and in the streets. No doubt about it. I would want a solution as well. We all would want a solution.
But I along with everybody else would like to at least have an idea for a solution. Where does Egypt go from here? Who amongst the opposition after 30 years under the same rule will actually know how to run a country of 80million? I ask these questions because I truly do want to know. It is not easy and there is no easy answer. My "hope" and my vision for "change" is that the US start looking in the mirror and thinking real seriously about who we are and what we do.
I don't take issue with much of what you or Andrew had to say, and I'm not sure I have a good enough understanding of Egypt's internal politics to speak intelligently about them. You kind of lost me on your last few points, though.
Based on what I've been hearing, the Israeli and U.S. governments are basically whining about how they may not be able to control Egypt and the region once Mubarak loses power. I think that's very telling and informative about exactly why America is hated all over the world. Its blowback, plain and simple. As Andrew pointed out, we have a history of propping up leaders who will do our bidding and then turn a blind eye while they brutally oppress their own people. I guess what strikes me about that is that it isn't plainly obvious to everyone.
What are more interesting to me, though, are the assumption that democracy is the ideal and why people want to be ruled in the first place. It seems that many take a Hobbesian view of the world and assume that government is a necessary evil to prevent perpetual war. That idea, though, flies in the face of the idea, promoted by Hobbes himself, that all people are created equal. It also flies in the face of the fact that governments throughout history are responsible for more deaths that any other entity. Even democracy can be and is sometimes described as tyranny of the majority. Sorry, let me get off my soapbox and reign the rest of this back in (ever so slightly).
Your last couple of facts are also of interest to me because they imply that the U.S. *should* do something about what's going on in Egypt and China's rising economic power. But your earlier facts point out that our intervention is exactly what brought us here and created the problems we now face with moving forward. Haven't we done enough? It seems to me that the real problem is that we constantly view the world in nationalistic terms while holding tightly to the belief that America is exceptional, that her might and status in the world should be perpetually preserved at all costs so long as those costs are external. This only seems to breed xenophobia and, in turn, contempt for those not like us. The sooner we embrace the idea that we're all equal, that a better future lies in peaceful cooperation, and that the state is anathema to those ideas, the better.
Thomas Jefferson had it right: peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.
Johnny Edge,
Thanks for your input.
I think it is becoming more and more obvious to people that the US policy isn't a sustainable one. As Andrew pointed out. However, stability is important whether it's the Middle East or the Midwest. I have no idea what the powers that be in DC are thinking or doing other than currently re-writing the the way they will do business in the Middle East. The region will be extremely different and there are other countries who will be rising up to demand it.
The US does need to do something, in the region or at home. We should assist the Egyptians with establishing their new way. We should assist them as best as we can, we owe it to them and it is in our best interest. That of course is another argument all together, but the status of relations and the continued struggle for strength and power in the MIddle East does in fact require a friendly to US Egypt.
I wish it weren't the case that the US was always involved in places that they may or may not be wanted, but it is a fact of current policy. Like I stated in my response to Andrew, I hope that the US takes this opportunity to look in the mirror and re-evaluate how and why we do things.
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